This is a reply to this blog post: http://gkupsidedown.blogspot.com/2009/05/angry-and-aggressive-atheism.html I began a discussion with a commenter named Mary, and decided to continue it here as my comment was too long to post there.
Hi Mary,
You’ve given me a lot to think about, and helped me to clarify my own views about this debate. It seems to me that we (each side, not you and me personally) are looking in a mirror and seeing each other, in that we have the opposite perspective but the same attributes.
I think where we are today is to be expected considering basic human nature and the various personality types represented on both sides. There are people who want to challenge ideas and be challenged. There are people who prefer to avoid conflict and focus on common values. There are people who are afraid of the slippery slope and what would happen if the other side went too far. There are people who just want to get on with their life and not think too much about it. There are people who feel compelled to evangelize. There are people who feel persecuted. And there are people who don’t want to debate, but do want to open a dialogue and understand. I appreciate and have been all of these people at some point — I’m still most of these.
I also think the anger is a natural side effect, and I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing. It’s bad if it doesn’t lead to discussions like the one we’re having here, but clearly it has. I don’t think we can progress to a point where we are shaping the world together based on our common values until we have worked out our differences, and if we try to do that without getting angry, then some things will always remain under the surface and never get addressed. I think we should all be allowed to be wrong if it leads to greater understanding.
That said, I’m not sure jerks like Dawkins will ever be tolerant. I’ve gone through my phase of calling believers idiots, and while I still get frustrated because it seems ridiculous to me, I have realized the real issue is that believers find Meaning in it, whereas I don’t, and I can’t belittle that. I think at his age he should realize that as well. Though, if I had never read Dawkins, perhaps I wouldn’t have realized how ridiculous it is to call believers idiots, so maybe it’s all part of the process.
Now, on to some of the specifics you addressed (paraphrased in caps)…
MOST CHRISTIANS ARE NOT DISCRIMINATORY AND HATEFUL TOWARDS ATHEISTS
I agree, most Christians I’ve met in person are great about the whole thing. Most of the people in my life to whom I’ve “come out” have been wholly accepting, and occasionally willing to engage in dialogue. Other atheists have different stories, and it may have been their own attitude that led to people treating them harshly, but I don’t want to make that assumption without knowing the details. My fiancé and I can’t tell his family, because they are also racist and disowned a family member for being gay, so it’s not worth the risk. It may seem silly, but it saddens me mostly because in order for us to be friends on Facebook, I’d have to remove all references to atheism on my profile lest his siblings find it. I’m very much into social networking — it’s important to me — so this is frustrating.
I also know many atheists who simply made it clear that they did not wish to engage in discussions about religion (as most Christians assume every new person they meet is Christian and will engage them as if they are) because they don’t believe in God, only to be the recipient of hard evangelism at work, by family, by friends, at home — in all the “safe” places — which turned them angry.
The fact remains that we do have to be careful who knows we’re atheists. I’ve only told people after I’ve gotten to know them, so they would already know I’m a decent person. Also, I would like to be a teacher or hold public office, but I’m not sure it would be worth the struggle, as I am an open atheist and any quick google search of any form of my name will show it.
However, most of the hate (on both sides) is online, and when it’s online, it seems like it’s the whole world. On account of this discussion with you, I have resolved to try to remember the real people I know when I encounter hateful remarks online, and remember that if the people online knew real atheists they probably wouldn’t feel that way either.
Another issue is political representation, but that’s a lengthy topic of it’s own.
ATHEISTS ARE JUST AS — IF NOT MORE — ANGRY AND HATEFUL
I think this is true. But I think it’s to be expected given the situation, and I believe it’s forgivable. However, I think atheists need to stop being angry first in order to affect change.
WHY TALK TO EACH OTHER ABOUT IT AT ALL WHEN BOTH SIDES HAVE ALREADY MADE UP THEIR MINDS? WHY ARE ATHEISTS EVANGELICAL?
I think we’re all emotionally attached to our ideas, and although we often get angry, I think we also all want to understand the other’s point of view. Most of the discussions probably start with questions intended to further understanding, which leads to discussions of logic, which leads to fallacious arguments, which engages negative emotional reactions, which leads to insults, which leads to leading with insults when writing about — or conversing with new people — on the topic.
I also think it comes down to the personality types I mentioned earlier. Personally, I wouldn’t like the world very much if we didn’t talk about it all. I find Meaning in discussing the things that are important to people. The people who don’t find meaning in the discussion often ask these questions, and I guess the only thing I can say is “Thank you for asking. I simply enjoy the discussion.”
Also, one thing I’ve noticed, though atheists don’t treat atheism like a religion, we do treat reason like a religion. It’s what guides us and where we find meaning and purpose. So when we debate about the logic behind theistic belief, it is a religious debate on both sides, and has all the baggage associated with that.
WHY CAN’T ATHEISTS JUST BE QUIET
You didn’t say this, I know, but that was what I heard when I read it the first time. I don’t think it’s what you meant, but I think it’s worth addressing, because I often have the same question myself. Why the heck should we feel the need to commune about our lack of belief? I honestly don’t know the answer. I have some guesses, but I think they are mostly reiterations of what I’ve written elsewhere in this comment thread. I continue to struggle with this question.
In conclusion I want to thank you for enhancing my determination to make the dialogue between theists and atheists more open and understanding. Coincidentally, my local atheist group is becoming more organized and has created a mission statement including that very idea. Also, I have been holding a domain to create an atheist blog for myself, but instead I’ve decided to create a website where we can come together to have discussions like this one. I am optimistic about the future of this debate.
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My co-worker recently “came out” to his family, and he started a blog about the dialogue he’s having with his dad. I thought you might be interested: http://www.emailfromaskeptic.com/2009/04/email-from-skeptic.html
